Making art to connect strangers 🎨 Ivan Cash, Director of “A Social Distance”

TRANSCRIPT

Note: This transcript is automatically generated, and there may be some errors.

00:02

Speaker 1: Welcome to get together. This is our show about ordinary people, building extraordinary communities. I'm your host, Bailey Richardson. I'm a partner at people and company and a co author of get together how to build a community with your people. And I magazine guest correspondent. In each episode, we interview everyday people who have built extraordinary communities about just how they did it. How did they get the first people to show up? How did they grow to hundreds, thousands, more members. And today we're talking to Ivan cash and interactive artist and filmmaker whose work doesn't just celebrate human connection. It encourages it. Ivan is just 33 years old, but he has already left a beautiful dent in the world. He has shown his work at the Victoria and Albert museum in London, the Brooklyn museum, he's made it to the Forbes. 30 under 30 lists, the Cannes lions shortlist.

00:58

Speaker 1: He even gets to advise the us postal service about what artwork to put on their stamps. And I didn't want to interview Ivan today because of all of those accolades. I wanted to interview Ivan because of the exact nature of his work. You see Ivan uses storytelling and art to actually bring people together, to connect strangers through small benevolent collaborations that add up to much more. I wanted to learn more about exactly why I've been makes work. That's so collaborative and how he pulls off such ambitious projects. What tips does he have for those of us looking to tell the story of our communities or encourage those benevolent human connections. Maggie, you have followed Ivan's work for a long time as well. You even interviewed him for Forbes a few years ago. What's one thing that you learned from our conversation with Ivan today.

01:50

Speaker 2: Yeah. I wrote an article about Ivan's projects. Now my email back in 2015, because I was inspired by how he helped people reconnect with old school letter writing. But I didn't realize until today, just how deep rooted that desire was to create a sense of community. He shared that as a kid, he felt a lack of strong connection among his peers. And that's why he's been so motivated even today to create a sense of connection for strangers all over the world. So through Ivan, I learned that you can take what originally may feel absent in your life and help bring that at a larger scale to others.

02:21

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I learned that too, even though I've known Ivan for a little while as well. One of the joys of hosting a podcast, you really get to know people on the other side, let's jump in. I've in cache. Welcome to the podcast. We are so happy to have you here. Excited to hear a conversation today, personally, just as part of it. I can't wait to see what's going to unfold. My first question that I want to ask you is a question. We ask a lot of people on the podcast. We like to say you can't fake the funk. Anyone who's getting a group of people together, they can't fake the enthusiasm or the motivation. Often it comes from a very personal place. And I sense that the same is true for these projects that you pour yourself into and want to kind of understand where that comes from for you. How did you find your voice as an artist and you know, where did your motivation to create connections between strangers through art really start? Where did that come from?

03:14

Speaker 3: Well, first thank you for having me. It's an honor to be on the podcast. And as you were asking me that question, I felt myself get a little bit nervous, even which I feel like is always a good sign. I feel like excitement, anxiety, or are very close siblings. I guess it begins for me growing up in a really small rural farm town, a couple hours North of New York city and being the only Jewish kid in my school facing a lot of antisemitism. Also, my parents raised me without TV or video games, which now feels trivial because of the internet, but at the time that was really a baseline through which a lot of my peers related to each other. And so I definitely had outsider experience growing up. I had to switch schools in 10th grade due to getting bullied, I guess, connection and interacting with other people was something that always felt elusive to me.

04:10

Speaker 3: And I was so fascinated by it. How was it that people were able to so easily seemingly easily connect with each other and socialize and just like have a good time because that wasn't my experience for the, for like foundational years of my life. And I guess in looking back at where did the work that I do today, STEM from, I can point to a couple of different experiences. One is I really loved the ethicist column of the New York times. And I was like dealing with a conflict with my parents around like a new iMac that I wanted to buy with money that I had made as a busboy. And they wanted to still control my privileges around it. And so I wrote to the ethicist of my own volition and it ended up getting published. And

04:53

Speaker 1: How old were you at that time? 15 nice first opportunity to be published in the New York times, 15 years old.

05:01

Speaker 3: And then the reader's digest later picked it up. So it was like, it was a thing, but I suspect that my proclivity to doing this kind of outreach came from a lack of connections in my immediate surroundings. My immediate nuclear family has always been super loving and supportive, but beyond that in a social level with my peers, because that wasn't as present, there was like kind of this innate outreach and desire for like connection elsewhere. And when I look back on that moment, I feel like a lot of the work I'm doing today still really hinges upon this desire to like make and forge connections or put myself out there and take a risk because dealing with rejection was something that I was so familiar with that it seemed like it doesn't really hurt to reach out to someone. I don't even know.

05:51

Speaker 1: I haven't one thing that has struck me since the moment I first met you was how easy it is to connect with you. You're an excellent listener and you really give people eye contact that lets people know that you're open to what they're saying. And you're curious about what they're saying and you have a pacing to yourself. That's very calming. And every time we interact, I'm struck by that. You make the people you're with feel very, very good and very seen. Has that always been something that you've been able to do? Is does that make sense to you? Like it's interesting to me that you felt so disconnected because to me you seem so natural at creating those connection.

06:26

Speaker 3: Yeah. Thanks. That's such a sweet compliment. I think it's, it's something that has definitely been developed. I suffered with social anxiety for probably half of my life. I think it was probably my last year in high school and then into college. And then especially in my early twenties when I started to hit a groove. But I think that it's like a continued unfolding and every day there's little bits of maturation or progress. I can point to a couple of like communication classes I took at college. I think that certain sorts of personal work be it therapy or silent meditation retreats, or even just personal struggles have made me more empathetic or have helped me learn listening skills. I've done a lot of weird workshops or group self-improvement type things. And like in my early twenties, I feel like in a way that an anthropologist might study a foreign culture, that has been my approach to social interaction. And it came from a place of being, Oh, this is something I'm so clearly void of. I just don't have any skills in this at all. And I can look back over the last 10 or 15 years and see a pretty linear graph of getting better and better. And I also think that for anyone that's a good listener, empathy comes from a place of you can't fake it. You really have to care about other people's experience. And I think that hardship does that to you.

07:51

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Tell me about your background in art. Your parents were quite creative, right? So was it natural for you to pursue creative projects or to create around this need to connect? Where did that part of your life show up?

08:05

Speaker 3: Totally. As much as I used to rag on my parents for not having TV and video games growing up, I can totally give them props for always being ambassadors of any creative pursuit. My parents have never forced me or wanted me to consider a career that is financially lucrative. My dad is a fine artist. My mom is a school teacher who brings a ton of creativity into her teaching teaches first through third at, at Montessori public school. She's actually retiring this year. Shout out mom,

08:37

Speaker 1: Hey mom. I went to Montessori to love a Montessori

08:42

Speaker 3: And yeah, growing up, there were just lots of creative projects that we do together. I remember when I became conscious of brands as a child does at some point I really wanted Nike clothing and we couldn't afford that. Or at least that wasn't a priority. And so my dad offered to make us Nike swish stensul and then spray it onto a bunch of like white Hanes t-shirts. And I was like, that's brilliant. Let's do it. And I can't remember if I got found out or not, but that DIY spirit has definitely always been there.

09:15

Speaker 1: So jumping forward from your childhood up to 2011, I think you're in your early twenties and you did a snail mail. My email project, which was one of the early connection based community was sort of the output of this art project that you did. You had volunteers transformed strangers as emails and to handwritten letters free of charge. It ran for six years. You had 2000 volunteers interpret over 29,000 letters that got sent to 80 countries. Can you tell us about that decision to do that project? Where did the motivation come from for snail mail? My email,

09:55

Speaker 3: I guess I'll start by saying, you know, we all have these crazy ideas. I don't think the idea of translating email into a handwritten letter is particularly original. I've talked to many people that were like, Oh yeah, I had that idea. So I think the difference is that I decided to really run with it. Letter writing has always been something that I've felt is particularly potent in terms of a way of letting someone know you care about them. It's a really intimate correspondence letter. Writing is such a, it's such a special way of communicating in an age where everything is now more and more instantaneous. And so I think the delay of letter writing and being able to see someone's penmanship, it's really special. I had just quit my job at Weiden Kennedy in Amsterdam. And I broke my contract and quit after just five months.

10:43

Speaker 3: So I was feeling a bit ashamed, but also like also inspired to have been like, you know, what, full time job is not for me, I'm going to do something on my own. I don't know what it's going to be. I can't remember the exact moment that the idea came to me, but it was one of the ideas I had just circulating in my brain after quitting that job, I knew I wanted to do something. And that was the project that had the most energy behind it. And I suspect it was because of all the damn emails that I was having to manage at my corporate job. Yeah. So I made a simple website and then I sent the website and the concept to a couple of blogs. And on the fourth day of the project is Moto, which is a good tech culture blog, big one, ran a story about it.

11:28

Speaker 3: And that was the turning point. It went from a couple of family and friends submitting their emails to be handwritten. And I was the sole letter artist to receiving a thousand letter requests in one day and recruiting my family to help out recruiting an intern to help out. And I remember for every letter that we were completing, 10 new email requests would come in. So we were just like falling behind. And I had a crisis for a couple of days of what the fuck do we do? And decided to put a note on the website, just seeing if anyone would be willing to help out as a letter artist. And that's when a lot of people just organically reached out saying yes, and some of whom become project managers, community managers, email organizers, really stepping up to fulfill these responsibilities.

12:16

Speaker 2: Who do you think motivated those people to help out? How do you describe the reason that they raised their hand to contribute?

12:23

Speaker 3: That's totally the question part of me still doesn't know, that's kind of the magic of it is why did these people decide to volunteer their time, transforming emails from someone they don't know to letters going to someone else that they don't know? It was a very weird thing. When you think about it, I guess my best guess is that in our increasingly digital distracted, fast paced world, there was something that struck a chord with people about this earnest attempt at championing connection, through the lost art of letter writing. I think that for anyone that was on the receiving end of one of those letters, they felt the magic and the fact that we didn't charge that was the other thing. There have been other services that offer something very similar, but charge you for it. I think the fact that there was no ads, there was no business plan. It was just an interactive art project. I think that that earnestness matters and that people can smell it. They can smell when something's not earnest and they can detect when it is. And I think that that was probably a determining factor as well.

13:26

Speaker 2: So for these letter writers, when you were responding to them, how did you bring them in and onboard them? Did you make it very free for all? They can do whatever they want. They can decorate it, how they want. Did you have a set of rules? Like how did you bring them in

13:40

Speaker 3: From a creative perspective, we really encouraged all of the letter artists to flex and feel autonomous in terms of how they wanted to interpret the letter or the customer requests. We invited any of the letter requesters to include a custom option for a doodle or a flower pedal or a spray of perfume or a lipstick kiss. Most people chose to doodle. So it was very open in that respect. There was no approval process from us in terms of everything else. We had a structured onboarding process where every volunteer had to sign, review like a terms paper that was around like confidentiality of not sharing out the addresses that it was going to have not be obscene or inappropriate. And just also breaking down to them. The expectations that their work is completed in a timely way, by no means, did we have a 1000% batting average? The hardest part for me was when friends and family would say like, Oh yeah, it was submitted a letter, but it hasn't arrived yet. Can you check it for me? And the reality was because everyone was volunteering their time. There wasn't a true accountability. Definitely. There were many letters that fell through the cracks, but the overwhelming did make it. And I think that's what was so impressive.

14:55

Speaker 1: You mentioned that some letter writers ended up growing into project managers or taking on a bigger role in the project. How did you identify the people who wanted to step up and then how did you lift them up?

15:08

Speaker 3: That's a cool question. I have always been drawn to people that display, passion and show that they're willing to go above and beyond the first project manager, Lucy is living abroad at the time and she just emailed me and said, Hey, I'm down to write letters. And I'm also happy to help out as a thought partner, if you're just wanting to think about growing, building this, or if you have any other challenges, I love this idea and I want to be a part of it in any way. It doesn't take an MBA to read that email and think, okay, this is someone that clearly is passionate and interested in helping out and capable, or at least interested in taking on more responsibilities. I didn't really like ask for resumes or anything. It was just cool if you're down, like here's the responsibility. I think knowing what I know now, I'd probably be a little more discerning, but I think part of the magic of the project was just sort of the spontaneity of it all.

16:02

Speaker 1: It's interesting. We interviewed the executive director of TEDx and he said the exact same thing, which is they don't care about people's credentials at all. And intentionally don't ask about that. They just ask questions to understand how much time a potential host is spending, thinking about what ideas might get shared in their community and who might speak. But they look for energy and passion about the challenge. And we've always said, people who care are more powerful than people who don't. But I think that that passion sounds like it was just a natural thing for you to be drawn to, but it's also a very powerful thing for someone to have. It's a very finite resource.

16:43

Speaker 3: Totally. That's cool to, to hear that approach validated.

16:47

Speaker 1: So after you finished this project, what reflections did you have about it? What stood out? I think this was one of the first, really big collaborative projects that you spent your time on and after you finished it, how did you see the project in hindsight?

17:01

Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate that question much like a baby who grows and, you know, it's going to be a lot different from their infancy to when they're six years old, definitely was a changing relationship. And I think on an overall macro lens project, the scale that it reached and the, I guess just the success that it had in the feedback that I got from it, it was so energizing and really helped me believe in the power of an idea. Maybe this is like a bit of an aside, but I'm such a believer in the power of ideas. And for anyone listening, if you have an idea that you're excited about, there's so much value in pursuing it and trying to make it happen. I learned so much from not having a plan. It was just all organic and spontaneous through that process. I learned all of these amazing skills that totally serve me today. I got to connect with a lot of amazing people around the world through it. This is totally insular and more about me, but like I, I'm now citizens stamp advisory committee of the United States postal service, which is like whole other conversation, but just a very cool serendipitous result of having done the snail mail, my email project.

18:14

Speaker 1: Yeah. So just to explain that you get to help decide what art and imagery ends up on us, postal stamps, is that correct? Yeah. Is amazing. That's some of the most coveted wall space in the planet, you know, the best cocktail

18:31

Speaker 3: That it's a lot of funds. I'm one of 12 people that gets to decide what goes on the us postal stamp. So it's quite an honor. And then going back to it, I think the flip side is that from year one to year two, three, all of a sudden to six, my energy behind it definitely began to wane, especially towards the last couple of years where we were dealing with issues of scaling. And I remember the conversation around getting email addresses that were like based on the domain, like at snail mail, my email, and then having to design a mobile version and then needing to like break out of our super chaotic Gmail, shuffle into an actual backend server and system that would automatically distribute that requests with artists. It became more and more like a company or like work and being the person that was still responsible for making it all happen. It just took more and more time. And the six year was just not as magical as the first one or two. So I just had to make the call and I don't want to be doing the same project all the time. I want to kind of move on to new creative challenges and it was just time.

19:40

Speaker 1: So after snail mail, my email, you have done a bunch of other projects that really pair strangers to one another one of my favorites is the passenger project probably cause my mom and my grandpa both worked in the airlines. You have a PDF that people can download that allows strangers on planes to handwrite answers, to questions or doodle drawings on the same sheet of paper and pass it from person to person down a plane revealing parts of one another to another passenger revealing the plane passengers for themselves. You also did a selfless portraits project, another collaborative art project where strangers across the world through one another's Facebook profile photos in the end, as of current count, you had more than 50,000 drawings submitted from 153 countries, which seems like in my brain, maybe every country in the world and the project ran for about three years. You know, after you did snail me on my email, you continue down this path of creating almost like a sandbox, a creative sandbox for other people to go in and play and connect with one another. How do you describe the key elements of these people driven our projects? What do you look for?

20:54

Speaker 3: It's so funny because hearing you present them in that way, it feels like official and intentional and like, Oh yeah. This like body of work, just to like demystify it a bit in the like day to day process of coming up with those other two projects, it was very much, you know, I remember like the moment that I was on the plane coming back from a wedding when I was like, wait, why can't this plane of strangers have the same energetic, magic connection that this wedding that I'm flying back from came, it's the same number of people. It has got to be a way. So I think it comes from like just a, seeing a challenge and wanting to find a, a creative solve for that. It starts there. It's like curiosity. And the challenge of it, the times that I've been most inspired come from seeing works of art or initiatives.

21:36

Speaker 3: People have created that they're doing it for passion, not for personal gain or financial gain. I think that like living in America in 2020 people call it like late stage capitalism. Like we grew up with people being able to recognize corporate logos more than they can a bird or a leaf. One of the questions people will probably wonder in hearing about this. It's like, well, how does this guy support himself? And so just to share that, I also work in corporate advertising, doing campaigns for some of the biggest brands in the world. That's the way that I'm able to support all these independent projects. Part of my desire and creating them is not have creative projects that are about a bottom line, but really just have them be pure. I think that there's also a lot of like divisiveness. I feel like there's like so many buzz words now about division in America.

22:26

Speaker 3: I remember having a summer internship in New York city in high school and committing to having a conversation with the person next to me on the subway every day, it was really rewarding. And it kind of felt crazy to me that that wasn't a norm. So I think that there's some like stubborn part of me that wants that to be the norm wants benevolence towards strangers to be more accepted and widespread. That's the underlying mission. And just to go back to it from like a psychology perspective, it's making work for my 13 year old self who felt so alone and terrified of the world and uncertain and to give that person not only a voice, but also a sense of they belong.

23:08

Speaker 1: Yeah. I think too, what I hear is sometimes the things that cause us pain when we're young, when you work your way through them, they become extremely empowering. And you feel like you have visibility or a depth of understanding for me, I think growing up, being gay. And I feel like it's part of my mission in the world, like a core part of my identity and something that allows me to see some things in the world that other people maybe don't see because they had a different upbringing. So I feel like it's a source of power. Yeah, absolutely. Like, it's interesting to see how the thing that causes the most pain or the biggest challenge is when we're quite young, if you move through them, they can be absolutely a super power like think about X-Men, you're almost like a mutant moving through the world and you're like, this can be changed. This can be different. And I have the tools to change it, you know, whereas other people don't have that active relationship to connection.

24:05

Speaker 3: Totally. And just to balance that out, I also just want to like acknowledge that I don't feel like I'm on the other side of a lot of personal struggles as well. I still cope with chronical depression, and it's not uncommon for me to like wake up in the morning and just feel just like a sense of separateness. I think that's important just to say, because it's so easy to fall into a narrative of, Oh, this person was broken or they were struggling and now everything's great. And that happily ever after. And I think as far as I know from everyone I've met in life thus far, I'm open to being proven wrong, but I feel like people's struggles don't end. They kind of evolve and become more and more refined. So I just want to offer that as well to ground that out.

24:45

Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. Do you ever think that the work you do helps you cope? I have a history of some depression too, and anxiety and creative projects are sort of getting exuberant celebration of possibility. I think in some ways it's like a really heightened emotional experience of the good in the world. And it helps me, I think you've pursued more creative projects than I have, but they're almost like little tent poles of hope as you move through life, you know?

25:14

Speaker 3: Yeah. Ditto to everything you just said. And I think that we're all on some level wanting to find meaning and purpose in our lives. The times that I'm most sure of myself in of my purpose is when I'm in the middle of a creative project and just swept up by it. And don't have to overthink things because I've committed myself to it. I'm going to finish it. And it's almost at the end of a project there's open to postpartum depression of being like, Oh, it's done. It gave me so much purpose. Now I, the same existential dread is coming back. And I know a lot of artists and creatives can relate to that.

25:47

Speaker 1: It's a good way to transition to the next project. I want to talk to you about, which is the last photo project, which was the first work you did in film. It's a video series where you ask strangers across a given city to share the last photo on their phone and the backstory from it, and really received international recognition. You got to Vimeo staff picks more than 1 million collective views of these videos. And it also inspired people around the world to make their own last photo projects. Can you tell us a little bit about filmmaking is a big endeavor to undertake it's a big step. Why did you decide that you wanted to work in film?

26:24

Speaker 3: It definitely wasn't as intentional as that, I think in the way a lot of my projects have been experiments moving to film. I definitely didn't have the internal dialogue of, okay, this is a big step and I need to master this craft. It was really just, you know, shooting on a crappy DSLR. I was teaching at the time. And so I had one of my students come along with me, had no film experience to shoot it while I held the microphone. And if you look back at the first, last photo of San Francisco video, it's super shaky at the depth of field. Isn't right. I'm in some of the shots. I'm not in some of the other shots, there's no consistency and it's objectively terrible filmmaking. And when that ended up getting a Vimeo staff pick and getting a lot of attention, it was energizing.

27:07

Speaker 3: And I think the process was less about making a film and more about being out in public and feeling like there are so many people on their phones all the time. What the hell are they doing? I want to know about it. And also feeling like on social media, everyone's curating whether they want to or not. It's just the nature of it. So I wanted to know like, well what's happening in people's every day candid lives. And it's like the adage, the ordinary is extraordinary. I think that was the intention behind it. And then I definitely fed off of the thrill of learning to start making films and the challenge that that is. And then also the reception to the films. When I was in high school, one of the first creative projects I remember doing was taking my parents' camcorder, bringing it into New York city, interviewing people on the sidewalk, asking them random questions.

27:55

Speaker 3: And it was kind of the same deal. It was just like wanting to connect with people, wanting to kind of break the monotony, think that it was this inflection point at the end of doing those other crowdsource projects that you mentioned. The irony is that I was all up in my email inbox all the time, having to manage these projects. And if anyone wanted to comment about their experience, good or bad, it came to me. And I started to feel really overwhelmed by that I was falling victim to success or all of these like connections that I had facilitated. Suddenly I felt the weight of that. And there was something really exciting to me about going back a one-to-one interaction where I didn't owe that person, anything afterwards, it was just a conversation. And then the output was a film. That's more one way than interactive.

28:39

Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing that really stands out to me, hearing you talk about being a kid and getting to walk up to people and ask them questions with the camcorder in your hand is when you watch these last photo project films that you've made, people have some pretty intimate and personal last photos of one of the women took a photo of her husband's grave as her last photo. And there's just a way that you transcend the everyday. When you're interviewing someone, you get permission to ask them things that wouldn't come up and just like a house, the weather conversation. And it seems like you understood in some ways that a tool camera it's allowing you to do that, allowing you to go a little deeper with it.

29:18

Speaker 3: Totally. It's an excuse to ask someone questions. It's like not in our social contracts to ask without a microphone and a camera.

29:26

Speaker 1: What was the reception like from people? I think approaching strangers in my experience sometimes goes really well. And sometimes people really don't appreciate it. What have you learned about how to create a bond or a connection or how to approach you don't know to participate?

29:42

Speaker 2: Yeah,

29:43

Speaker 3: Like that. I learned so much doing this project. That was definitely one of the most personally gratifying experiences to travel around and talk to around a hundred people per city. Over the course of three days, I certainly got more refined assessing someone's aptitude and openness to stop and chat with a stranger. I think that these are things that we intuitively know to some degree, you know, if someone's walking really fast and on their cell phone, the odds of them stopping to talk to you are like 0%, right? We all know that contrastingly, if someone is walking more slowly in an area that's not too busy, not too quiet. And they make eye contact with you when they smile, the odds of them being willing to stop and chat with you are pretty good. And so I think it was about getting more and more sensitive, picking that up and then making a quick assessment.

30:32

Speaker 3: I never got to like above 75% people saying, yes, I'll chat with you. I think that's always going to be the case, but I definitely got better and better. I think that body language, the way that someone's shoulders are slumped or upright eye contact, even things like the weather make an impact. And then I found that the environment in setting, I remember going to New York to time square thinking like, Oh, this is going to be like, you know, shooting fish in a barrel and no one would stop and chat with me. And the insight there was that by the time that I approached them, they'd already been approached by five other people for one of a million reasons. And so their guards were up, which totally makes sense. I love this insight.

31:13

Speaker 2: Yeah. It's interesting what you're saying about going below the surface. And so many of your projects are about that. Speeding up intimacy with a stranger and creating these connections. And I thought a lot about that from journalism and interviewing people a lot. I always describe it like microwave intimacy. Like all of a sudden you get to know people's life stories, their insecurities, their challenges, but then afterward, I always think, Oh, wow. So what does that make me in that person? Are we friends now? I know your story, but it's a very different kind of relationship. So I'm curious with all your projects, how do you feel about the fact that a lot of the moments of connection are so deep, but so fleeting and temporary? Is that something you embrace? Do you wish there was more of a sense of permanence?

31:54

Speaker 3: Yeah. Great question. I have a tattoo above my heart that says all is impermanent and I'm a big Buddhist. So I, part of my canned response would be like, yeah, I embraced the change. And I think that experiencing depth and intimacy with someone, however, fleeting, it might be, it's still meaningful. And I can think back to exchanges, I've had with people while traveling where it's not about a project, but just these connections I've had, we might not talk anymore, but I can still think back on that and feel things. In some instances, I was really inspired by the interactions and have stayed in touch with certain people that I met. Yeah. There's a guy named Jess soon who I met in New York and I decided to go back and make a film about him and spend a whole day with him. And then after that, we've hung out a couple of times in New York since then, I think it's kind of a yes and answer that said, it's definitely a nuanced situation to be a filmmaker and have subjects or to be a journalist and have people that you're writing about where there's a bit of a transactional newness to it almost where it's like, I want something from you.

32:56

Speaker 3: And I guess that I've coped with that and feeling like my intentions are really in the right place of just wanting to make space for them to feel heard, thinking back to all the different people I had chatted with, I've kept in touch with like zero 1% of them. But even though we haven't maintained that thread of connection, I think back to the 10 or 15 minutes where I just gave them undivided attention and really did my best to make a safe space for them to feel heard. I can reflect in real time, as like, as I'm sharing with you both, I feel like, wow, it's really nice to be listened to what a beautiful thing. So at the end of it all, I think there's something really beautiful about that intimacy and sharing that with someone, even if it's totally fleeting.

33:40

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like the quote attention is the rarest form of generosity smoke meal. Nice. We'll jump to the last project that you did. I feel like a lot of people saw this film I've been, it was everywhere. And so many people, I respect we're sharing it on the internet, which was fun to see, but you just made a film called a social distance where people from some of the countries most impacted by COVID-19 documented themselves, as you described to be witnessed as a symbol of our humanity during a challenging time. So the short film featured a montage of different portraits of these people in different countries at home and the breadth of experiences, very personal, fragile human experiences that were going on in homes and in cities around the world and response to the pandemic. When I was emailing this video out to people who I thought would love it, the number one response that they gave me was just how did they do this?

34:35

Speaker 1: You got a large number of people to do a bunch of quite specific shots and have them feel in sync with each other. You shared the brief with me and I got to look it over. Then you have tips for participants like where black, you know, film and a clean space do longer takes than you think are unnecessary. So there's film at the beginning and the end, and you have very specific scenes that you asked for each person has to introduce themselves to the camera, a portrait with, and without a mask shot of them, washing their hands or opening and closing their fridge or outside their window, which I loved. I was just so impressed by the thoughtfulness and thoroughness and seriousness of the brief gets clear that if I received an email from you or one of your collaborators with this PDF document asking me to be a part of a project, it was a serious project that it was something you cared deeply about. And that you had thought through with a large amount of empathy. This project was really a big effort. I'm wondering now that you're years into filmmaking and ears into these projects that sew together a bunch of people's different life stories. What are some of the tips that you would give someone who wants to dip their toes into this kind of collaborative storytelling?

35:53

Speaker 3: You mentioned it's specificity. I think that in doing specifically a crowdsource project, I've found that having more constraints actually lead to more creativity from my experience and where I can really tell people exactly what I'd like them to do, it's reassuring. And it gives them a sense of like, okay, this is the sandbox to play in. Within that we had one person was in their boxers when they did it, someone took the camera and put it into their mouth. You know, there was all this sort of creativity within that, but it was all on brief. Yeah. We really planned for two weeks just exactly what we wanted from people and not only spelled it out, but also had visual references so that they could see that. So I think just being specific and having structure to the ask, cause we could have just said, Hey, we want to hear about your experience during COVID lockdown, send us a video, right.

36:46

Speaker 3: That totally could have been a thing. And so I think by having more of a point of view and more specificity that was really worked to our advantage, another thing I'd say is just the outreach for something like this. So the film was co-directed with my buddy, Jacob Jonas, who is a choreographer and had a team of nearly 15 people that helped make it all possible. You know, I've kind of learned since the snail mail, my email days to try to formulate a team ideally before the project begins, as opposed to after it, having more people on board, more collaborators allowed us to reach a broader audience and network. I guess my advice would be to be shameless in sharing it out and in doing outreach to get participants that included all of us, sharing it on our personal social media, email newsletters, and saying, Hey, we're doing this project.

37:30

Speaker 3: We'd love for you to participate, being really, even specific about who we wanted to participate in. So we had a list of countries that at the time were the top 20 countries that were most impacted by COVID-19. And it felt really important that we have representation from all of those countries. And then this goes hand in hand with outreach, but really just hedging your bets. We realized that we probably only needed 25 to 30 people to make the film, but we wanted a lot more than that, so that we'd have options. And in case someone wasn't able to film during the day, we couldn't really use their footage. We just wanted redundancy, just being realistic about what the final output or outcome is, and then designing everything in the planning process to set yourself up for success. One more thing that's coming to mind is having a very clear and goal and deadline having done these projects that you mentioned earlier that were more long lasting.

38:25

Speaker 3: I'm now a big fan of having start and stop times for every project I take on a sanity saver. And so that was really helpful for us to know that this was to be a huge amount of work for five or six weeks, and then we'd be able to exhale and take a breather. So with that, I would say no, that it takes a lot of work in coordination to do any project that involves a lot of people. Even if you're asking them for relatively simple things, there's still going to be a level of correspondence that's needed. And so we had a main point of contact, my studio manager, Louie who's amazing and loves owning those relationships and is so helpful and generous with everyone. That's been an invaluable component of a project like this as well.

39:11

Speaker 1: Great. Thank you said these projects are welcoming more variables than even a normal filmmaker takes in. You bring so many people into the process and people that you maybe don't have deep or even in person touch points with. It takes a lot. I'm sure to edit. It takes a lot to imagine it. So I'm curious. Why do you keep doing these collaborative connection, forging projects all these years later? What keeps you going back to them?

39:39

Speaker 3: The best response I have is I can't help it. It's in my DNA. And even though it definitely takes more work in a lot of ways, it also feels like I've got to go back to my younger self. I think it's about making work that would make that kid feel a little less lonely and a little bit more positive. That's a deep motivator.

39:59

Speaker 1: So it seems like for a lot of your projects getting press and publicity has added a lot of momentum. For example, snail mail, my email, that's how you got a lot more people that start submitting letters and people volunteering up until now. So do you think that present publicity is always helpful for community building? When is it not helpful? What is your relationship with them?

40:20

Speaker 3: That's a great question. I think that press and publicity is a bit of a double edged sword. I think that any form of external validation can be dangerous in a community oriented project that said it can be really helpful. And a huge part of my creative process after a project is finished is outreach to journalists, to media outlets, to blogs. And I can't speak for everyone, but for the projects that I'm involved with, it stems from a desire to create projects that will impact culture in some way, shape or form. And it's hard to have a wide reach without the help of press or some degree of vitality. And I think the key for anyone that's building their community is to not let that define whether or not something is successful for them or not. But, you know, really kind of reflect on what the original intent is.

41:13

Speaker 3: And I have to always remind myself, I've done a lot of projects that don't get the virality or press coverage that I'd like them to have. And I would still do them all again because it felt meaningful. And then a dirty secret from the advertising industry is to write fake headlines of what the article would say about what building or doing. And that can be a way of just understanding. Okay, is this unique? Is it attention grabbing? Is it relevant? I'm a huge believer in the power of ideas. And I think that one filter that I look at ideas through is, is it simple? Can you explain the idea in one sentence strangers across the world, drawing each other as Facebook profile photos, transforming strangers emails into handwritten letters. These are all remarkably simple concepts. And so I think that that from a cultural reach perspective allows them to transcend cultures or even language. Cool. Thank you. Yeah, sure.

42:10

Speaker 2: Ivan, you're so great. Thank you for letting us interview you. If you want to connect with Ivan cash, you can find him@wwwdotivan.cash or vimeo.com/ivan cash. You can find out more about us, the people behind the podcast at our website, people and.company. Also, our book is on Amazon. Get together book.com. It's full of stories and learnings from conversations with community leaders like this one with Ivan. Oh, and last thing, final thing. If you don't mind, please review us or click subscribe on the podcast store. It helps more people find stories like Ivan's. Thank you. Talk to you next time.